IUL

2025 0624 – LIFE180 – Interview With IUL Litigation Attorney LIVE – [Robert Rikard] – [VIDEO-YouTube-01:19:10]

• 2025 0624 – LIFE180 / Chris Kirkpatrick – Interview With IUL Litigation Attorney LIVE – [Robert Rikard]  —  [BonkNote]  —  [VIDEO-YouTube-01:19:10]  

• Chris: Robert is one of the top IUL Litigation Attorneys in the Country.
  • So much bad information on TikTok.
  • I built an education platform on YouTube, TikTok is not my platform.
  • Robert new to TikTok
    • Robert: I was horrified.
• Robert: My Story – started as a lawyer in 1997
  • started as criminal defense lawyer
    • – worked for lawyer who defended Alec Murdock, 
  • led that into civil trials – wrongful death case, video poker operators
  • always understood the wild, wild west of whatever an industry is.
  • Went to bigger firm, national platform, class actions – Ford motor company – radiators, multi-district litigation – Ephedra, mass torts, class actions. 
  • Collaboration – Somebody said do securities litigation – 2013, bad broker cases, lots of bond work, Option Rate Security Bonds = Fake Bidding, also Ponzi Schemes.
• Robert: Ponzi Schemes
  • 2018 – call from little lady from Seneca, South Carolina re: FIP – Future Income Payments
  • Group around the country used FIP as Parking lot to fund Indexed Universal Life Policy
  • Call to 4 peers – Securities Lawyers – Have you heard of IUL. yeah, VUL. No, IUL. Nobody ever heard of it. 
  • 2010, 2011, 2012 – IUL’s started to be sold as Retirement Plans.

• Robert: 1 year of study – Learning IUL’s. Cultivate Experts around the country.
• 6 – Robert: “I think it’s the Biggest Financial Ticking Time Bomb in America,quite frankly.”  I’m that guy in the Big Short warning about the Mortage Back Securities industry.
• Chris: Maybe not that big, but… big because of who is being targeted.
• 7 – Robert:  Lifecycle of it
• 2010, 2012, 2013 – High-Networth Individuals – policies are expensive.
  • high the Target Premium, the higher the commission
• represented 400 families, 100 Million Collected
• 2013-2014 – 401k Reboot, IRA Reboot, Roth Conversion
  • repositioning retirement money into IUL’s, They have made Billions of Dollars
  • I got into IUL by accident
  • FIP – 
  • “Wealth Architects” – Made up words, don’t want to 
  • Self-Directed IRA’s – Qualified Custodian
  • FIP = Parking Lot – MEC – IUL – Taxable event – 8.5% – 
  • FIP Collapsed – 300 Million – gone
  • Life Insurance Agents – IMO’s
    • One IMO into Bankruptcy – I’m not going to say who it is.
• Depositions:
  • All of these situations were the same.
  • to Agent: How did you sell this?
  • 3-5-7 years of premiums – Fully Funded – Never pay premiums again – Then Loans – Example: 400k premiums over 5 years, 1.6 Million Loans Tax-free. Wow can you sell me one. 
  • Just selling illustration
  • Epiphany: These IUL’s were going to blow up without the the Ponzi Scheme
  • Most complicated insurance product in the marketplace. 
  • Agents didn’t know how they worked. No idea.
    • S&P Index – Half of them thought the money was in the actual index.
    • One agent started crying. – He said I can’t believe I sold this. What can I do?
  • 12 – Chris: Highlights reel of depositions – make it public. Who was the most entertaining agent to depose?
    • Robert:  Doug Andrew, Smooth Operator, Best Salesman, Take out what they actually do to customers. 
    • Chris: Which is horrible.
    • Robert: I don’t know how much product they sell now, but…. They had a sales force of 16 people. and I sued all 16 of them. Trasformative Wealth Strategy. Education, then they were allowed to buy.
      • I have about 80 clients currently in Utah with pending litigation. Live Abundant.
      • Florida guy – Hidden Wealth 
      • Doug – Missed Fortune
      • Get carriers to run in-force Illustrations: Examples – Blowing up policies
      • Affinity Fraud – Predatory way to sell this
      • My mission – shut as much as this down as I can.
      • Chris:  We are completely aligned.

• Questions and Comments from TikTok
• Chris: Get Curtis Ray – Take down Curtis Ray – He has 1.4 Million Followers on TikTok
  • Robert:  Our firm has 30-60 cases at any time
    • – LC – Pacific Life – First trial that I know of regarding Tax-Free
    • Agency Theory – PacLife’s Problem – Sales Force = Independent Producers  – Everything that they do is bound by the Company. Documentation from Company. Getting up the chain through the agents.
    • Agents – IMO’s – Carriers – 
    • Curtis Ray – WFG – Curtis Ray – Mutual of Omaha
• 18 – Robert:  Not a pro-bono law firm
  • Damages 500k and above, people have lost millions of dollars, mostly premium finance cases – complicated
  • a lot of calls – some version I’ve lost my life savings of 14k, 22k
  • big firm 
• 18 – Robert:  MLM World – makes me sick to my stomach – these people are preying on people like my parents.
  • Getting ready to launch a new firm –  Only doing these types of cases
  • We are going to put a dent – people Selling IUL as an investment, Stealing money from lower class and lower middle class peple – We are going to put a stop to it, because regulators are not. We can bring pain and we do.
  • Chris: I equate IUL Agents / Companies navigating AG-49 iterations. The federal regulators move slowly. Chasing Al Capone back in the day – very nimble.  AG49 – 
  • 20 – Robert:  Airplane Carrier vs Swiftboat (Law Firm) – Whack-a-mole – AG-49 iterations, company changing contract elements.
    • I’ve told the press this: this would all end if they changed commissions / compensation structure.
    • Chris:  or the way they were allowed to illlustrations.
    • Robert: or a real stress test – illustration to 120 yo.  Statistical ProbabilityEx. build guaranteed rate and them some 0% years, but then you don’t sell it for Tax-Free Retirement Income.
  • 22 – Chris: Share this Video with someone.
  • 22 – Chris:  My mission: LIFE180, wrote book “IUL Exposed”, built LIFE180 —  to save IUL Agents. I was an IUL Agent and the Director of Business Development for one of the top IUL Companies in the Country
    • People get in the business for the right reasons.
    • It took me a long time to figure this stuff out. 4.5 years in the business. Why the hell has it taken me this long to figure this out. 
  • 23 – We are going to be doing a Video Series. Robert’s YouTube Channel

• Illustration Rate – IMO Training
  • Doug Andrew – Bryan Jarrell – “Properly Designed” – 
  • ala carted menu – different choices in designing
    • Maximum Target Premium = Maximum Commisson
    • First Deposition
      • [Cash Flow – P1/P2]
      • That’s above my paygrade
    • 28 – Agent Depositions –
      • Never read the policy

• TikTok Comment: But we don’t do Target Premium, we Max Fund
  • Robert: Policy will lapse – Selling Fixed Pay – 3-4-5 years of premiums, then taking loans out and no more premiums going in, Monte Carlo Scenarios
  • Chris: But it doesn’t lapse on the Illustration.
  • Robert: The Illustrations are Fake.
    • Did you build in some 0%, if you didn’t, you have created a mathematically impossible scenario.

• Chris: Doug Andrew – Target Premium vs. 5-pay vanishing premium – Tax-Free Income – LASER Fund – rebranding – keep getting in trouble.  You have successfully sued them, deposed them. Can you tell specfics?
  • 33 – Robert: Doug is not licensed in anything. He’s a YouTuber – Directs business that is staffed by his Family – Doug, show me an Illustration that shows …. Others – IRA Reboot (been selling it for 15 years) Where are the testimonials?
  • Chris: IUL Challenge. Doug and Aaron didn’t respond to me, so Doug put a video up in response to one of my Videos. WFG Agents. But they don’t want to have a bigger discussion.
  • Robert: They don’t exist.
  • Robert: People have been doing this since 2010. That I know about, because I’ve sued them. What better marketing…show an in-force Illustration…..of loans etc.  Ex.
  • Chris: I’ve never seen one. WFG. Go to your upline.
• Robert: IMO guys shitting their pants. I just had an agent reach out to me last week. He said – I don’t know what to do. MLM – Training – Have you ever looked at their Sales Guidelines and Practices – Company has websire of how to sell.  He was actually looking at Policyholders Annual Statements. Upline, Carrier – Stop bothering us. These are my questions…. He’s freaking out. Good dude. Trying to help the customers. TikTok – Things are going to get them in trouble, meet me in a very bad way.

• 39 – Chris: What would you say to the person who is looking to purchase an IUL. Doug Andrew – Biggest Platform – Number One Influencer from an Educational perspective – (Curtis Ray has a bigger following on TikTok) – Doug Andrew – Greatest negative impact on the industry – Does training for WFG and GFI. Ripple effect – Catastrophic. Misrepresentation perpetuated by Doug put out stuff countering me from a marketing and sales perspective that looks like they can back their shit up.
  • 106 people watching Live – People love this stuff
• Robert: Doug could sell Pepsi to a Coca-Cola Executives. He’s good.
  •  Doug – Smooth, interesting character, Super smart – He knows insurance world, mechanics of products, Tax Codes
    • Doug also knows: how to say the right things to sell.
    • Capitalists
    • Doug gets in alot of trouble:
      • FIP Ponzi Scheme
      • Woodbridge Ponzi Scheme
      • Most of them have been Securities Barred
      • Live Abundant – Utah – Indicted
      • Companies keep taking them because they sell alot of product.
  • Robert: Another Agent Group
    • 10 complaints against an agent. Internally debating whether to terminate them. they did. the agent went to another carrier.

• Robert: IUL Learning Curve. A year to learn the product itself.  Only thing I could find at the time (2018) were telling.
  • White Coat Investor
    • Chris: They don’t understand it fully.
  • Not alot in the press, not a lot of litigation
  • TikTok, Social Media – hard to find
    • Robert: Wonky Articles – LifeProductReview – Bobby Samuelson
      • Other than you and Bobby Samuelson.
  • 42 – TikTok Comment – Robert should have a Security Team.
    • Robert: Probably, It’s South Carolina – we all carry guns. 
• Robert: IUL Agents are going to have a hard time educating themselves.

• TikTok Comment – Are there any reputable IUL Agents?
• Chris:  You can call me anytime. I’m a licensed agent. No, what’s been your experience.
• Robert: I always see the bad guys.
• Chris:  You know me.
• Robert: Yeah, but you are not selling IUL’s.
• Chris: I’m not selling IUL’s. There aren’t reputable IUL Agents.
• Robert: If they are selling it / saying:  Tax-free Retirement Solution, Selling it as better than a 401k, Roth IRA – Run.   True Secret to unlocking wealth
  • Robert: 9 times out of 10 – Insurance Agent vs. Securities Licensed
    • If you are an Agent who told someone to take money out of a Qualified Retirement Account (Roth IRA or 401k) to put it in an IUL, then you have just given Securities Advice. Every State you have just committed a Securities Violation. Double and Treble damages. Fines. Barred from ever be Securities Licensed professional.
    • Chris: Kind of like what Doug Andrew and his team are doing.
• 45 – Robert: It’s just wrong: Last Night on TikTok – First 50 videos – How the IUL is better than a 401k. That’s just wrong.
  • I can explain why. third party adminstrator. costs – .25-1%. IUL – could be 90% commission. How do you ever catch up?
  • Chris: Because you can’t lose any money. Sarcasm

• 46 – Chris: Dustin Wiley – Financial Viking – Viking Financial – TikTok – Instagram
  • Battling on TikTok – Used to respect me, Whole Life, 
  • IUL is the saving grace of everybody’s financial future. Ton of Influence. 250,000 Followers
  • Robert: Not Securities Licensed, the only thing that they can sell is insurance, highest commission paying product – IUL.
    • No-Load Life Insurance – Securities Licensed only people to sell it.
    • 48 – Carriers say don’t do it.
  • TikTok Comment – Just structure the commission to be the lowest.

• ---

• 49 – Robert: Chart from Lawsuit – Diversified Portfolio
  • Carrier Slide: For Life Insurance Producer Use Only. Not to be used with public.
  • Policy Loan in Year 2. 
  • This is one of the biggest companies in the country.
  • Sales and Marketing Guide – Producer use only.
    • IUL is for: a need for Life Insurance. If you are 65 years old, you don’t need life insurance.
    • Chris: Well, maybe. More a Legacy Planning.
    • Robert: These are not investments, these are life insurance products.  25-60 in good health, High Income – $200,000 a year in income, no occupational risk – not super dangerous or in industry with big turnover
    • Most are sold to people with 50k per year, with a 300 per month premium
    • Where is the money coming from? Roth IRA, 401k? Is that how your IMO taught you to sell it? What does the Carrier say?
    • IMO vs. Carrier
      • Carrier – Agent Guide
        • Max Contribution to Qualified retirement plans and a desire to contribute more. Not redeploy. 
        • Max 401k, Max Roth IRA,
        • Supplemental Retirement Income
        • 15 years – Robert: 2 year – Chris: Doug Andrew
      • Chris: Liability – Deflect problems onto Agents
      • Robert: Deposition – Agent didn’t read Guides – Just did what IMO said to do.

• TikTok Comment – Life Insurance is not a need based product.
• Chris: I gave up my Securities License. You have to understand your client. Life Insurance should never be seen as an investment.
• Robert: IUL’s are sold as an investment and Retirement Income. People are duped into buying it and agents are duped into selling. Shady sales tactics. Agents don’t know what they are doing. Agents who do know what they are doing and…

• Chris: Are there problems with Whole Life Insurance.
  • Robert: I’ve only had one call on a whole life insurance policy. the guy lived to be 105 yo, Agent told him to take out loans, premium financing.
• Chris: Any problems with Annuities?
  • Robert: Yes… Example – 
• Chris: Life Insurance and Annuities – Same company – more income coming out of Life Insurance than Annuities. Proves it’s a bunch of bullshit.
• Robert: 140 pages

• Chris: Dave Ramsey – BTID – Buy Term, Invest the Difference – I don’t agree.

• Robert: my financial picture – Pie Chart
• Chris: my financial picture – I can’t do a 401k, I’m my own person. I don’t believe in solo 401k. I would do the company free match.
  • Chris: CVLI – Whole Life Insurance – CVLI and Cash (I lump them together). Real Estate (bigger piece of the pie for me), money not in alignment with values, CVLI = Bond Alternative, Educate yourself about all of this stuff. Whole Life Insurance = Foundational – , buying property in Missouri with CVLI, how to leverage it.  

• Chris: Would Robert take on Whole Life Infinity Banking cases.
• Robert: Yes, but we are focused on IUL cases. Most carriers forbid the words Private Pension fund, Be Your Own Banker – IUL guys say that too. Carriers will tell you that that violates their guidelines.

• Chris: You have had a change of heart lately. Massive cases.
• Robert: Lifecycle of sales / lawsuits. IRA Reboots – Middle America.  Now third tower – Genesis is sadly TikTok – MLM Groups – Saying it is an investment – $400-$500 / month.  In the next couple of months – if companies aren’t going to police them, our law firm is going to police them, they are ruining people’s lives. 
• Chris: These are your relationships.  Robert is going to take on groups of cases. How do companies get away with it. Many cases are not litigation worthy.
• Robert: Pinto Cases – internal memo – Risk analysis that big companies do.
  • Epiphany: Forget the Ponzi Schemes, these things (IULs) will never work.
  • Epiphany: Americans being preyed upon ….
    • Agents don’t know what they are doing. Agents don’t get a pass, but they should know how these things work. The mechanics
• Chris: Now it’s on you – the agents.
• Robert: You have to have space to think. Took a Vacation, I was overwhelmed.
• Robert: Big Cases – Millions of dollars in losses, we would turn down smaller cases. There are hundreds of thousands of people each year who are being sold IULs.
  • Last Year – 3.8 Billion of new IUL Premium
    • Why do carriers / companies allow IMO’s / agents to do this? Big money for companies / carriers.
  • I am a mosquito on the ass of an IUL company.
  • Last Year – Average 1st year Target Premium – $14k
  • Premium Financing cases – Millions – 30-40 million credit facilities
    • People are being preyed upon to reposition Qualified Money to IUL. Unregulated. Feds. I’m the only regulator.
    • Taking on MLM industry.
      • We are going to sue their fucking faces off.
    • Chris: TikTok Comment – Go Fund me for Security for Robert.

• Chris: Agents – if you want to dive deeper – reach out to me. I can connect you with Robert. My mission is to educate people.  Term insurance. Peruvian Jungle to do Ayawaska for 2 weeks.  Agent – Upline – Policy.  Trying to expose this, do it the right way, compliantly, things we don’t understand, right way and wrong way to do it. 
• Robert: Educate yourself, sales, Security Licensed – Stock, ETF, you owe it to yourself to understand the products, you don’t want to be the guy or gal, 12 years down the road, to be the person who screwed up someone’s retirement because you didn’t know what you were doing. Buying, Selling. I have plenty of work-sueing people when they fall apart.